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 Fake Auction Pieces

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kolektor



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Wed May 18, 2011 10:44 pm

Actually ang batas na umiiral para sa trade ng mga ganyang klaseng item ay ang CULTURAL PROPERTIES ACT OF THE PHILIPINNES OR R.A. 374.

Naka specify sa batas na may mga items na hindi dapat ibenta ng alinmang indibidwal o grupo.

"Sec. 2. It is hereby declared to be the policy of the state to preserve and protect the important cultural properties and National Cultural Treasures of the nation and to safeguard their intrinsic value."

"Sec. 3.

"a. Cultural properties are old buildings, monuments, shrines, documents, and objects which may be classified as antiques, relics, or artifacts, landmarks, anthropological and historical sites, and specimens of natural history which are of cultural, historical, anthropological or scientific value and significance to the nation; such as physical, anthropological, archeological and ethnographical materials, meteorites and tektites; historical objects and manuscripts; household and agricultural implements; decorative articles or personal adornment; works of art such as paintings, sculptures, carvings, jewelry, music, architecture, sketches, drawings, or illustrations in part or in whole; works of industrial and commercial art such as furniture, pottery, ceramics, wrought iron, gold, bronze, silver, wood or other heraldic items, metals, coins, medals, badges, insignias, coat of arms, crests, flags, arms, and armor; vehicles or ships or boats in part or in whole.

"b. Cultural properties which have been singled out from among the innumerable cultural properties as having exceptional historical and cultural significance to the Philippines, but are not sufficiently outstanding to merit the classification of "National Cultural Treasures" are important cultural properties.

"c. A National Cultural Treasure is a unique object found locally, possessing outstanding historical, cultural, artistic and/or scientific value which is highly significant and important to this country and nation.

"d. Antiques are cultural properties found locally which are one hundred years or more in age or even less but their production having ceased, they have, therefore, become or are becoming rare.

"e. Relics are cultural properties which, either as a whole or in fragments, are left behind after the destruction or decay of the rest of its parts and which are intimately associated with important beliefs, practices, customs and traditions, periods and personages.

"f. Artifacts are articles which are products of human skills or workmanship, especially in the simple product of primitive arts or industry representing past eras or periods.

"g. Natural History Specimens are live or preserved specimens of plants and animals, fossils, rocks and minerals. Only types, presently irreplaceable specimens and those in danger of extinction shall be embraced in this Act.

"h. Type as mentioned in Section seven-b in the context of this Act is a specimen selected as the best to represent a kind or class of objects consisting of any but almost identical individuals or pieces. In the case of specimen which was used as the basis of description establishing the species, in accordance with the rules of nomenclature.

"i. A historical site is any place, province, city, town and/or any location and structure which has played a significant and important role in the history of our country and nation. Such significance and importance may be cultural, political, sociological or historical.

"j. An archeological site is any place which may be underground or on the surface, underwater or at sea level which contains fossils, artifacts and other cultural, geological, botanical, zoological materials which depict and document evidences of paleontological and pre-historic events.

"k. An anthropological area is any place where studies of specific cultural groups are being/or should be undertaken in the field of anthropology. Anthropology in this case is descriptive, interpretative and comparative study of all aspects of various cultural linguistic groups including the collection and analysis of their particular material culture.

"l. Collector is any person or institution who acquires cultural properties and national Cultural Treasures for purposes other than sale.

"m. Dealers are persons or enterprises who acquire cultural properties for the purpose of engaging in the acquisition and resale of the same.

"n. Exporters are dealers who engage in the business of exporting cultural properties.

"o. For purposes of Republic Act No. 4846 government property covers all lands and marine areas including those covered by licenses or special permits and those owned or administered by government-owned or controlled corporations, institutions or agencies."

Nakasaad din na may pahintulot ang pagbebenta nito at malinaw yan ayon sa batas, kaya mag-iingat kayo sa pagbili ng mga items lalo na yung mga bagay na pag-aari ng gobierno o importante sa mga mamamayan ng Pilipinas. Meron din sila dapat permit galing sa gobyerno.


"Sec. 16. All dealers of cultural properties shall secure a license as a dealer in cultural properties from the Director of the National Museum."

"Sec. 17. All dealers engaged in the business of exporting cultural properties shall secure a license as exporter of cultural properties from the Director of the National Museum.
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Newbie



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Mon May 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Halimbawang me nagpasok sa auction ng isang libro...tapos sa likod ng libro ay me nakatatak na "Property of Malacanang Palace Library." Tingin ko ay warning na agad yon na stolen yung item na ina-auction???

Me natatandaan kasi ako dati na meron mga medals/librong binebenta sa Recto na galing Malacanang...mga nakaw sa Malacanang nuong umalis si Marcos. Wala bang expiration date ang anti-fencing law???

Halimbawang mahigit 30years na sa'yo yung stolen items...tapos at saka pa lang nadiskubre ng gov't na nasa iyo yung mga yon...kakasuhan ka pa kaya ng gov't???

Ngayon lang pumasok sa isip ko na maaaring me consequence ang pagpapakita ng mga collection sa mga kapatid na kolektor...at baka bigla ka na lang akusahan na meron mga nakaw sa koleksyon mo or me bumisita na lang sa'yo na taga-BIR at tunungin ka kung bakit ka nakakabili ng mamahaling coins kahit wala ka naman na pa-file na income tax.


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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Mon May 16, 2011 11:48 am

Newbie wrote:
Hindi ako sure...pero pagkatanda ko ay tax exempt ang mga ganitong association/club???

It depends on what is written in the articles of incorporation of the clubs. Whether it is for profit, charitable or educational purposes etc. It also depends on what kind of tax exemption you are looking for such as real property taxes, income tax etc.

Newbie wrote:
Saka anuman ang mabili mong nakaw na dumaan sa auction ay legally acquired property mo na ang mga yon at hindi ka pwedeng kasuhan sa anti-fencing law. Di ako sure kung law dito sa Pinas yon o sa States.

Dapat siguro ay maitanong ang mga 'to sa isang expert.

Some points that you should know on our anti-fencing law:

1. Yes we do have an anti-fencing law.

2. The general rule is: Any person in possession of stolen properties are presumed to know that the items were stolen. Exception: If the stolen items where acquired through a public sale (eg public auction), then there is a presumption that the buyer is a buyer in good faith, hence not criminally liable.

But a buyer in good faith is merely a presumption that can be overcome by evidence and no such presumption will arise if the sale was not public.

3. It is not automatic that the buyer in good faith can no longer be divested of possession of the stolen property. The true owner of the property may still acquire the stolen property if the owner is willing to reimburse the buyer in good faith of his purchase price. If not, then the buyer in good faith becomes the owner.

4. Based on recent jurisprudence, one can only be charged of violating the anti-fencing law if there is a prior conviction of a crime involving theft or robbery etc concerning the properties included in the complaint for anti-fencing. If not, the case will be dismissed for being prematurely filed. ( But I disagree with this ruling of the supreme court)

There. That's more than a handful already. More info that you'll ever need whenever you attend auctions. Very Happy
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Newbie



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Sun May 15, 2011 9:43 pm

Hindi ako sure...pero pagkatanda ko ay tax exempt ang mga ganitong association/club??? Saka anuman ang mabili mong nakaw na dumaan sa auction ay legally acquired property mo na ang mga yon at hindi ka pwedeng kasuhan sa anti-fencing law. Di ako sure kung law dito sa Pinas yon o sa States.

Dapat siguro ay maitanong ang mga 'to sa isang expert.
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kolektor



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Sun May 15, 2011 8:38 pm

Suggestion ko lang, kung pupunta ka ng auction and you are the bidder. Its your job to do some research on the items that you want to buy. Beside advance naman ibigay yung mga catalogs. Don't buy high priced coins if you have not seen the catalog nor the item, katangahan na yun. Second, buy items that you think you are familiar of. Huwag mong kang maghanap ng jackpot. Sa dami ng tuso dyan imposible mautakan mo pa yung mga datihan dyan. Third, if you already suspect that the coin is fake, bring that to the attention of the auctioneer beside floor bidding naman yan kaya wala ka dapat ikabahala. Fourth, ask advice from people who you trust or take a copy of the catalog or bring your own digital weighing scale para makasiguro ka.

Sa mga club naman, I think its time for them to set a grading standard and educate their own buyer on what is fake or not. Dapat may seminar muna or small talk on new discoveries or news before they hold an auction. Second, I think its time for them to set the ante of their own standard para i-respect sila ng mga members. Third, magbayad sila ng buwis kasi delikado pag nasilip yang mga iyan ng BIR at NBI kasi ilan dyan mga "fly-by-night" lang. Baka magulat kayo minsan kasama kayong mga bidders pag ni-raid yan ng NBI at BIR kasi aside from that some the items being sold there are nakaw from the National Archives. Ingat kayo!

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Newbie



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Sun May 15, 2011 8:18 pm

Anong improvement/s kaya ang dapat nilang gawin para maiwasan na yang mga reklamo sa fake???
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kolektor



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Sun May 15, 2011 7:38 pm

Ang problema sa mga local clubs ay mga tuso ang mga old timers dyan. Pag kanila yung coins eh hindi fake, pag hindi kanila eh fake. Proven na yan sa mga previous auctions. At floor bidding yan, they should have inspected the items bago sila mag place ng bids. May mga weighing scale and catalogs dyan where to check the coins if it had met the "genuine" criteria. Foul din yung mag didistribute sila agad ng letters without informing the auctioneers first. Para kasing pinalalabas nila na dinugasan agad sila. Maling practice yan. Kung ganun ang patakaran, anybody can cry "foul" and make noises and make accusations agad. Pag ganyan ng ganyan, sila din ang maaapektuhan coz nobody will sell coins anymore. Madali pa lang bwisitin yung mga clubs pag nagkataon, maglabas ka lang agad ng letters at magdadaldal ka lang to get attention then your demands will be attended.

Sa asal ng mga tao dyan, local clubs will die of natural death para nung nangyari sa philatelic clubs. Para sa mga baguhan mahirap kung bubungaran nila agad yung auction ng puro maririnig nilang salita ay "Fake". Without anybody telling them kung bakit naging fake yung item. Baka ma burn out agad sila.

Dati kasi may grading standard yung mga local clubs, nauna pa sa PCGS at NGC but I don't know what happened. Ngayon, iwan na iwan na sila.
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al.plata



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PostSubject: Fake Auction Pieces   Sat May 14, 2011 8:47 am

It is good to be a bonafide member of a numismatist group, you can ask around and seek advice from older or knowledgeable members. Anyway, I encountered one such incident about a gold coin which caused a minor furor with the "victim" bringing out the problem by distributing a protest letters to everybody and anyone interested, demanding return and refund of payment, which was honored by the Auction people (this was early this year, I think on January 2011).
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Newbie



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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Sat May 14, 2011 1:06 am

Halimbawang nilagyan lang ng "as is" yung description ng coin at walang sinasabing counterfeit/fake/reproduction yung coin...ibig bang sabihin nuon ay bahala ka na lang kung fake o orig yung coin???

Recently ba ay meron nakabili ng fake sa presyong orig sa auction at sinoli sa nagpasok nuong coin??? Mahirap sigurong magsoli ng fake kung nasa malayo ang nagpasok???
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al.plata



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PostSubject: Fake Auction Pieces   Fri May 13, 2011 8:18 pm

I already asked some of the officials about buying a fake item from the auction and was assured that it can be returned if proven as they know the source of all the items on sale at the auction. Some good fakes are labeled as "counterfeit" and once sold can not be returned as you buy it "as is" and there was no misrepresentation.. be sure to ask the officials about this to make sure...
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PostSubject: Re: Fake Auction Pieces   Today at 10:12 pm

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