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 What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40

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laki_sa_layaw



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PostSubject: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:24 pm

Currently on ebay auction with a high bid of $1,200.00 and 9 days remaining. This coin was listed twice at $4,500.00 starting price however no one pulled the trigger. What do you think will be the final bid on this? Here is the link. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110472300803&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:55 pm

In my opinion it's more than $4,500. people aren't pulling the trigger because the economy is bad perhaps. now is actually a bad time to let go of key pieces because there is less money available on the market allocated for coins maybe except for investors but they're mostly into gold. makes no sense to spend big bucks on a coin at these times. unless of course he is unloading precisely because he needs cash due to the bad economy. if i could afford to i would buy that coin. it's arguably unique at that grade.
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magestic



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:39 am

I think its a counterfeit manila 1828.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:29 am

magestic wrote:
I think its a counterfeit manila 1828.

What makes you think this is a counterfeit? Remember it is certified by PCGS and PCGS will not certified any coins if they are counterfeit.
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magestic



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:47 am

On the reverse the "E" in POR El Rey should have a crossbar in the middle of the E. The "1" and the "2" in 1828 is not a typical of other 1 and 2s in other 1828s. Just get 2 pictures of other specimen manila 1828s and compare. The host coin is genuine hence it was graded by pcgs. If the host coin had been fake it would not have been graded by pcgs.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:33 am

My understanding is if either counterstamp or host coin is counterfeit, then any grading company will not certified the coin. Can anyone provide the image of the real 1828 for comparison?
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magestic



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:16 am

The easiest way to detect is that the "2" should have a little flick and a tail pointed upwards. This one is stubby at the end and flat. PCGS are human and prone to mistakes. PCGS even graded some chinese fakes before. (not philippine coins). PCGS have even graded altered dates before in the past. These things happen in less than 1% of the coins they grade but it does happen occasionally.

This website is good to compare other examples of 1828

http://manilagalleontrade.webs.com/fernandovii18081833.htm
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:41 am

The images are not big enough to see the details and hard to compare. Assuming you are correct that coin is counterfeit, do you recommend to challenge the seller and have an expert re-examine the coin? Who is the expert on counterstamp here?
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magestic



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 am

PCGS have guaranteed the coin as genuine. They will not change their opinion unless the coin is a cast or a chinese fake. As its a genuine host coin it will remain "genuine" as far as PCGS are concerned and they will stand by their decision.

The seller would not have any motivation in re-submitting the coin to pcgs. What would be the point for them? Either it would come back as counterfeit or it could get a lower grade.
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:45 pm

Wow! if that's true then that's a major oversight that will cost someone thousands of dollars. I remember one time this year i saw at ebay a marcos-reagan coin certified by one of the top 3 grading services as "Proof" when obviously it was just BU and someone won it.

These people do make mistakes. They are grading experts not experts on authenticity which is only an ancillary function. These are american based grading services also so Philippine coins arent exactly their forte, maybe except for USPI coins. The real experts are ultimately the collectors themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:51 pm

that CS1828 has been debated on the previous version of filipinonumismatist for a long time... and surely base on comparing it with my counterstamp coins and some coins available in internet.. that thing is a fake.. I don't know why some of the discussion of previous version of FN was not included here.. on that version counterstamp coins are discussed elaborately... even PCGS makes mistakes, they are not expert on Philippine counterstamp coins.... Laughing Laughing
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laki_sa_layaw



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:57 pm

Can you post your 1828 c/s for comparison and also note the difference.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:09 pm

counterstamp_1828 wrote:
that CS1828 has been debated on the previous version of filipinonumismatist for a long time... and surely base on comparing it with my counterstamp coins and some coins available in internet.. that thing is a fake.. I don't know why some of the discussion of previous version of FN was not included here.. on that version counterstamp coins are discussed elaborately... even PCGS makes mistakes, they are not expert on Philippine counterstamp coins.... Laughing Laughing

that's actually a pretty good strategy. you seal the authenticity of your fake by having it certified by a reputable grading service. of course you have to know what coins these grading services are not experts of.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:05 am

counterstamp_1828 wrote:
that CS1828 has been debated on the previous version of filipinonumismatist for a long time... and surely base on comparing it with my counterstamp coins and some coins available in internet.. that thing is a fake.. I don't know why some of the discussion of previous version of FN was not included here.. on that version counterstamp coins are discussed elaborately... even PCGS makes mistakes, they are not expert on Philippine counterstamp coins.... Laughing Laughing

Was this the same coin that was discussed before? Maybe FN can chime in and give us a better understanding of this c/s.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:56 pm

Yes, in fact this is the same coin that was discussed a year ago. I know the name of the owner. I apologized for the closure of the previous forum site because of spam attacks. I would look at my file and share to everyone the picture of the coin.

It is very hard to authenticate counterstamp coins because most experts on this coin passed away before we could even get their share of expertise. Recently, a 1908 fifty centavos with YII and F7 C/S was auctioned at Bayanihan Club. We had to plan the purchase of the coin because we feared that if this go out to Ebay, the market of YII and F7 C/S coins would collapsed. Luckily,the item was pulled out from the auction.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:59 pm

filipinonumismatist wrote:
Yes, in fact this is the same coin that was discussed a year ago. I know the name of the owner. I apologized for the closure of the previous forum site because of spam attacks. I would look at my file and share to everyone the picture of the coin.

It is very hard to authenticate counterstamp coins because most experts on this coin passed away before we could even get their share of expertise. Recently, a 1908 fifty centavos with YII and F7 C/S was auctioned at Bayanihan Club. We had to plan the purchase of the coin because we feared that if this go out to Ebay, the market of YII and F7 C/S coins would collapsed. Luckily,the item was pulled out from the auction.

I think I know the original owner as well, and I know the seller and the new owner of the coin. In fact the new owner is a member of this site.
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embosed



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:34 am

First, I would like to thank FN for protecting my identity for owning this PCGS c/s 1828 as well. Yes, salamisky is right. Im the original owner and the winning bidder of this coin at the same time.
Now its my time to explained and reveal everything in regards to this controversial counterstamp. I originally purchased this coin back in 2006 in Iloilo City. This coin came from a remote province in Capiz, Panay island. I later brought this coin to PCGS for grading and it came back as XF-40, the highest they ever grade. I showed this piece to several U.S. dealer specializing in Philippine coins and they agree its authenticity without question. Ray Czahor is one of them. I also showed this coin to Richard Ponterio, the owner of the famous Ponterio & associates auction firm. He agreed without any single doubt.
This extra ordinary counterstamp had full serrated lines on both sides of the coin and obliterate about 90% of the host coin's legend. I never saw any full serrated lines on any other manila 1828 in my 20 plus years of collecting. Also, what makes this so special is the double stamp of the legend "manila" can be seen when magnified closely.
About last 2 years ago, I bragged this coin in this filipinonumismatist website for a show and tell. Later, one member of the forum from Australia claimed that this coin is a fake which I strongly disagree. He claimed that some of the die characteristic is not right compare to an original counterparts. Despite my detailed explanation to him that this coin is a different die variety of an original. I been specializing in Philippine counterstamp coins in the last 3 years and here are some reasons to support this claim:
1) The piece was came from a remote places in the Capiz province and it was acquired by a house to house canvasser in Iloilo which I later purchased.
2) The coin has its original dark gray toning which could not be duplicate by artificial means. I am well familiar how artificial toning is created.
3) Die variety exist in different forms as the the die of the screw press broke several times in 1828. Same thing happened in 1830.
4) I don't think forgers or counterfeiters would gamble to invest in an extra large screw press just to make this one. It would cost a fortune for them. Countermarked F.7.0 and Y.II are easy to make since they are just a small round die that is directly punched to the host coin. Counterstamp and countermark are totally different in minting process.
5) I would dare challenge anyone to see a same duplicate for this coin if its a counterfeit as someone claimed. The only way to counterfeit a manila 1828 is by means of casting which is obviously underweight and pitted surface.
6) Renowned U.S. dealer and Texas oil tycoon Mike Dunigan also confirms its authenticity. He specialized in Spanish colonial coins and is widely respected by major dealers in U.S.

Back in 2008, a British collector offered to buy this coin to me so I managed to sell it for $4,000. He later sold it to Mr. Pratt for $5,000 + in a private sale. Until recently, the rich Hawaiian seller got tired of the coin and resell them on ebay.
The reason I bought this coin back is because someone offered me a higher price for this piece again.
The only thing that surprised me is that the second highest bidder of this coin which I know who it is, doesn't get discouraged by the negative critizism of this forum which was artificially created by one of the competitors to detract him from bidding. The second highest also happens to be a member of this site for obvious reasons. He is one of my fierce competitors in USPI coins on ebay.

EWY
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:23 am

@embosed
Wow interesting story! how do you get these stuff? did you just happen to be at capiz at the time? maybe i should go there and just start shouting on the streets.

@salamisky
I think i won an item from you before. 1903 half centavo for $0.99 since i was the only bidder. it was dipped but still a bargain at a dollar.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:23 pm

Nice to hear from you again embossed, welcome back! FN
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embosed



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:25 pm

Thanks FN!
I'm always visiting this site everyday without missing it in a single day. I just kept silent most of the time unless there is some topic that I must need to discuss. I'm always updated on it. Happy New year to all!
EWY
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:36 am

I am thankful for embosed for elaborating the history and authenticity of this coin. Since I am not familiar with the c/s coin series, I thought it will be nice to ask the forum the fair value of 1828 manila 8 Reales, however up to this point no one really knows or share the real value of this coin. As embossed indicates, its true that this negative criticism did not hinder me from bidding as there was really nothing to lose because if the coin happened to be fake, I can always deal with PCGS as they stands with their guarantee. If I know the series enough, I would have bid higher than what the hammered price up to the original asking price. I was also tempted to offer joshypogi below his asking price prior to his final listing but I hesitate because again I don’t know the series.
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PostSubject: 1828 8 reales   Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:41 am

I saw this same coin listed on eBay in November of 2008 for $5995 or best offer. Sale closed on December 5th, 2008 with no buyer. I don't know if it was relisted after this prior to December 7th of 2009. I saved the original photos from the 2008 auction and the slab and coin look the same. The PCGS numbers are the same.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:45 pm

I be no 1 wrote:
I saw this same coin listed on eBay in November of 2008 for $5995 or best offer. Sale closed on December 5th, 2008 with no buyer. I don't know if it was relisted after this prior to December 7th of 2009. I saved the original photos from the 2008 auction and the slab and coin look the same. The PCGS numbers are the same.
I'm amazed you've even recall the PCGS no. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:46 pm

Do the forgers really need to buy a coin press??? I think they could easily rent one...like the one that was used to mass produce the restrike patterns of Marcos.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:08 pm

I think those pattern coins were produced using the real dies from TUPAZ. It was sold in Cartimar and the dealer that bought it sold it to several dealers and collectors. Some of the dies were even sold on Ebay by an ebayer by the name of electronicbay101 or something.
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