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 Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?

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DIC



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PostSubject: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:19 pm

Hey guys,

How does one know if a dos mundos coin is fake or not? what are some of the tell-tale signs that a coin is fake?

Is it normal for a dos mundos coin to weigh slightly lighter than it's official weight? example 26.87 gms instead of the official 27.07g according to krausse.

thanks
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borg



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:45 pm

In some circumstances, its possible for it to have a slight underweight due to wear, normally,under .5 grams. Contemporary counterfeit "dos mosdos" can be easily identified by looking at its edge which for a normal coin seems to be similar to flower petals. For the contemporary counterfeit, that edge is inverted. I'll upload some images for you to look at later. I'll check my own library.
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:50 pm

borg wrote:
In some circumstances, its possible for it to have a slight underweight due to wear, normally,under .5 grams. Contemporary counterfeit "dos mosdos" can be easily identified by looking at its edge which for a normal coin seems to be similar to flower petals. For the contemporary counterfeit, that edge is inverted. I'll upload some images for you to look at later. I'll check my own library.

thanks a lot. pictures would be great. Very Happy
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borg



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:16 am

Here are the details to identify the genuine 8 reales "dos mondos":
Obverse

Reverse


"A" - the origin or mint where the coin was struck
"B" - the year of mintage
"C" - assayer's initial
"D" - denomination of the coins, in this case "8" for 8-Reales
"E" - the ruling monarch

Quote :
The Royal Cedula (Decree) of 9 June 1728 by Philip V (1701-1746) brought a new age into Spanish colonial coinage. Minting of milled-type coinage with a screw press replaced the hammered-type macuquinas. Also a new design for the silver Real, showing the majesty and domination of Spain during the period, was also introduced.
The new design used a screw press that worked by rotating a weighted lever. It pressed an upper and lower die together on a blank planchet and with the intense and even pressure of the press, the planchet would be evenly and fully struck. Also, all coins would be of the same thickness. Quality was supervised by two assayers, with both adding their initial to each coin. (The (macuquina) cobs were used to be supervised by only one assayer). For the eight reales coin, an additional special collar was used to produce an edge design, giving a protective corded edge consisting of a design resembling a tulip. Any clipping or filing would be immediately evident. Because of their uniform size, weight without cracks or uneven edges and their deep full strike with all information clearly visible, they were difficult to clip or counterfeit. Testament to this is being popular with merchants in the Orient.

Although these designs were actually struck from Spanish American mints, they circulated not only in the American colonies, but also in the Orient, including the Philippines. It was actually the chief currency during the forty period (1732 - 1772) of its luster. Not only was striking beauty contributed to the popularity of the series, but also it was highly regarded for its silver content and weight.

The 8 Reales represented the largest denomination for the Pillar coinage series. These crown-size coins were approximately 37 to 41 millimeters in diameter and weighed around 417.6 grains (27.059 grams). It carried a silver fineness of .916. This fineness was a little devaluation from the old .930 carried by the old cobs. This 'devaluation' was possibly made to offset the increased cost in the manufacture of these coins.

The design on the obverse of the coins, represented the crowned Pillars of Hercules and the crowned hemispheres of the Old and New World floating on the sea, and the legend PLUS ULTRA, which means "further beyond", on the scroll the twines on the pillars. It also depicted the Spanish colonial domination of both Old and New World with the latin inscription -- "VTRAQUE VNUM", meaning the union of two worlds.
On the reverse side of the Silver coins,the crowned Coat of Arms of Spain, along with the Latin legend "PHILIP-V-D-G-HISPAN-ET- IND-REX" (Philip V - By the grace of God; King of Spain and the Indies.)

When Charles I (1516-1556), the first Hapsburg monarch, sailed for Spain from Netherlands to claim and sit on the throne left vacant by his grandfather, Ferdinand the Catholic, a group of forty ships accompanied him. On his flagship, it carried a picture of the Pillars of Hercules with scrolls that twines around the pillars. The scroll bore the young monarch's motto - Plus Ultra.

The origin of the pillars and "PLUS ULTRA" are traced to the legendary Greek hero, Hercules, where on his journey to capture a 3-bodied monster on the island of Erythia, he erected two pillars on the sides of the Straights of Gibraltar between Europe and Africa. During those time, it was thought to mark the edge of the world, hence in latin -- "Ne Plus Ultra" (Nothing lies further).

Charles I removed the word "Ne" and carried "Plus Ultra" as his motto in his ambition to expand the Spanish Empire beyond its European possessions during that period. Note that Magellan discovered the Americas during those period.

It was ironic though that it was in the period of this coinage that Spain lost its luster as a world superpower and began to loose grip of its colonies.

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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:35 pm

thanks i saw the site as well
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borg



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:14 am

Chinese counterfeiters have perfected the replication of dos mondos especially if you are only exercising your decision based on pictures you could see on ebay. It is very hard to give a single hint on how to detect what is real and what is not because sometimes the pictures are real but the listing is not, or the coin is real but photo editing and manipulation have destroyed the images of the coin. But one aspect is true about contemporary counterfeit coins, some of them fetched higher than their real counterparts.

For the modern fakes, one simple hint if you are buying on ebay is---"don't buy coins from sellers in china". Second, look for sign of casting such as bubbles and surfaces. Third, if you cannot hold the coins on your hands and just looking on the pictures, just compare the design of the coins to images of authentic coins you could find on the net. Very Happy
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filipinonumismatist
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:22 am

In my experience, one way of recognizing the truth from the fake is to simply look for imperfection just by looking at pics posted on ebay. Modern fake "columnarios" have uniform shape while the real one looks to be obviously "oblong" or slightly elongated. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:52 am

Meron na bang modern counterfeit na dos mundos na gawa sa silver at sakto na sa timbang???

Sana ay may mag-post dito ng mga pictures ng mga fake at yung mga timbang nila.
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:49 am

I won a dos mundos from an auction in ebay... at that time, i had absolutely no idea that there were fake dos mundos... anyway, to remove my doubt, i brought my coin to 2 reputable collectors in the Philippines, lucky me, the coin was not fake! One of the collectors even said its his first time to see a "perfect" dos mundos... after 40 years that he's been collecting, it was his first time to see a dos mundos that had perfect tulips on the side of the coin... he inspected them for about 30 minutes, and he guaranteed it was not fake Smile
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lizjensen001



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:50 am

by the way, that collector also taught me how to inspect a dos mundos next time Smile some points to look at to identify a real one from a fake Smile
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:50 pm

lizjensen001 wrote:
I won a dos mundos from an auction in ebay... at that time, i had absolutely no idea that there were fake dos mundos... anyway, to remove my doubt, i brought my coin to 2 reputable collectors in the Philippines, lucky me, the coin was not fake! One of the collectors even said its his first time to see a "perfect" dos mundos... after 40 years that he's been collecting, it was his first time to see a dos mundos that had perfect tulips on the side of the coin... he inspected them for about 30 minutes, and he guaranteed it was not fake Smile

A "perfect" dos mondos? wow sounds interesting. id like to see that. could you post pics? Smile
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lizjensen001



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:51 am

sure i will post a picture soon! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:54 am

can someone please tell me how to post an image in this topic? cause i've looked into the help tab, it didnt help me at all.. all i could do was post a link to my multiply account...
in the help tab, it sites an example of a website where i can post pictures, does it necessarily mean i have to use that website to post my pics too (so that i can post it here)?
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:07 am

when you post a reply, select the host an image icon (lower left below the "bold" button) select your pics and then upload it. the url link will automatically appear in the post. preview it for final editing. Smile
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lizjensen001



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:25 am

actually, that's what i've been trying to do ever since, but it doesnt seem that easy cause mine never appeared after a chose the pic... i will just try again, if no luck, will just post the link again...Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:09 pm

www.tinypic.com ->upload image and videos->file->browse->AAA.jpg->upload now->enter the code and click upload now->img code for forums & msg boards->

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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:54 am

Here it is. courtesy of liz's multiply sight.

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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:07 am

Here is one of my oldest Dos Mondos 8 Reales as an additional reference.

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ericgo



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:35 am

Sir Filipinonumismatist,

looking at the specimen you posted, i can't help but notice certain differences from your coin and liz's coin.
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:44 pm

Mas hawig ang dos mundos ko kay FN kesa kay Liz. Kakaiba yung "V" sa Vnum at yung "7" sa 1740 ni Liz. Binabad ba sa asido yung kay Liz kaya sobrang puti???
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:59 pm

yung mga nakita ko na different ay yung 'E' sa VTRAQUE and the spacing between ET and IND. Also the F below the M
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:21 pm

mine in actual is not white... i used the scanner to take the picture which is the reason why it turned that way.. i dont mind if you see "anything" on my coin, kasi im already at ease when 2 of the top collectors said my coin was authentic Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:26 pm

Newbie wrote:
Mas hawig ang dos mundos ko kay FN kesa kay Liz. Kakaiba yung "V" sa Vnum at yung "7" sa 1740 ni Liz. Binabad ba sa asido yung kay Liz kaya sobrang puti???

hahaha... grabe naman, what a comment na binabad sa asido! Smile i used the scanner to take the picture maybe that's why it appears white... but in actual its not. One of the top 2 collectors even offered to buy the coin, so im confident with my coin... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:29 pm

Based sa dies ng 1740 8 reales at 1735 8 reales. Medyo malaki ang pagkakaiba ng 1735 at 1740. Usually mapapansin nyo yung difference ng "dies" sa "dot" sa ibabaw ng letter "M" sa assayer's initial at sa porma ng "F" sa assayers initial pa rin. Tama naman yung die ng 1740 8 reales ni Liz. Maganda rin ang condition nung coin.



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ericgo



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PostSubject: Re: Dos Mundos/ 8 Reales Columnario real/fake?   Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:34 pm

thanks for the info Sir FN. This thread will greatly help us collectors whenever we decide to purchase this type of coin
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