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 What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40

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laki_sa_layaw



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:59 pm

filipinonumismatist wrote:
Yes, in fact this is the same coin that was discussed a year ago. I know the name of the owner. I apologized for the closure of the previous forum site because of spam attacks. I would look at my file and share to everyone the picture of the coin.

It is very hard to authenticate counterstamp coins because most experts on this coin passed away before we could even get their share of expertise. Recently, a 1908 fifty centavos with YII and F7 C/S was auctioned at Bayanihan Club. We had to plan the purchase of the coin because we feared that if this go out to Ebay, the market of YII and F7 C/S coins would collapsed. Luckily,the item was pulled out from the auction.


I think I know the original owner as well, and I know the seller and the new owner of the coin. In fact the new owner is a member of this site.
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embosed



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:34 am

First, I would like to thank FN for protecting my identity for owning this PCGS c/s 1828 as well. Yes, salamisky is right. Im the original owner and the winning bidder of this coin at the same time.
Now its my time to explained and reveal everything in regards to this controversial counterstamp. I originally purchased this coin back in 2006 in Iloilo City. This coin came from a remote province in Capiz, Panay island. I later brought this coin to PCGS for grading and it came back as XF-40, the highest they ever grade. I showed this piece to several U.S. dealer specializing in Philippine coins and they agree its authenticity without question. Ray Czahor is one of them. I also showed this coin to Richard Ponterio, the owner of the famous Ponterio & associates auction firm. He agreed without any single doubt.
This extra ordinary counterstamp had full serrated lines on both sides of the coin and obliterate about 90% of the host coin's legend. I never saw any full serrated lines on any other manila 1828 in my 20 plus years of collecting. Also, what makes this so special is the double stamp of the legend "manila" can be seen when magnified closely.
About last 2 years ago, I bragged this coin in this filipinonumismatist website for a show and tell. Later, one member of the forum from Australia claimed that this coin is a fake which I strongly disagree. He claimed that some of the die characteristic is not right compare to an original counterparts. Despite my detailed explanation to him that this coin is a different die variety of an original. I been specializing in Philippine counterstamp coins in the last 3 years and here are some reasons to support this claim:
1) The piece was came from a remote places in the Capiz province and it was acquired by a house to house canvasser in Iloilo which I later purchased.
2) The coin has its original dark gray toning which could not be duplicate by artificial means. I am well familiar how artificial toning is created.
3) Die variety exist in different forms as the the die of the screw press broke several times in 1828. Same thing happened in 1830.
4) I don't think forgers or counterfeiters would gamble to invest in an extra large screw press just to make this one. It would cost a fortune for them. Countermarked F.7.0 and Y.II are easy to make since they are just a small round die that is directly punched to the host coin. Counterstamp and countermark are totally different in minting process.
5) I would dare challenge anyone to see a same duplicate for this coin if its a counterfeit as someone claimed. The only way to counterfeit a manila 1828 is by means of casting which is obviously underweight and pitted surface.
6) Renowned U.S. dealer and Texas oil tycoon Mike Dunigan also confirms its authenticity. He specialized in Spanish colonial coins and is widely respected by major dealers in U.S.

Back in 2008, a British collector offered to buy this coin to me so I managed to sell it for $4,000. He later sold it to Mr. Pratt for $5,000 + in a private sale. Until recently, the rich Hawaiian seller got tired of the coin and resell them on ebay.
The reason I bought this coin back is because someone offered me a higher price for this piece again.
The only thing that surprised me is that the second highest bidder of this coin which I know who it is, doesn't get discouraged by the negative critizism of this forum which was artificially created by one of the competitors to detract him from bidding. The second highest also happens to be a member of this site for obvious reasons. He is one of my fierce competitors in USPI coins on ebay.

EWY
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DIC



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:23 am

@embosed
Wow interesting story! how do you get these stuff? did you just happen to be at capiz at the time? maybe i should go there and just start shouting on the streets.

@salamisky
I think i won an item from you before. 1903 half centavo for $0.99 since i was the only bidder. it was dipped but still a bargain at a dollar.
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filipinonumismatist
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:23 pm

Nice to hear from you again embossed, welcome back! FN
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embosed



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:25 pm

Thanks FN!
I'm always visiting this site everyday without missing it in a single day. I just kept silent most of the time unless there is some topic that I must need to discuss. I'm always updated on it. Happy New year to all!
EWY
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laki_sa_layaw



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:36 am

I am thankful for embosed for elaborating the history and authenticity of this coin. Since I am not familiar with the c/s coin series, I thought it will be nice to ask the forum the fair value of 1828 manila 8 Reales, however up to this point no one really knows or share the real value of this coin. As embossed indicates, its true that this negative criticism did not hinder me from bidding as there was really nothing to lose because if the coin happened to be fake, I can always deal with PCGS as they stands with their guarantee. If I know the series enough, I would have bid higher than what the hammered price up to the original asking price. I was also tempted to offer joshypogi below his asking price prior to his final listing but I hesitate because again I don’t know the series.
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I be no 1



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PostSubject: 1828 8 reales   Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:41 am

I saw this same coin listed on eBay in November of 2008 for $5995 or best offer. Sale closed on December 5th, 2008 with no buyer. I don't know if it was relisted after this prior to December 7th of 2009. I saved the original photos from the 2008 auction and the slab and coin look the same. The PCGS numbers are the same.
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filipinonumismatist
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:45 pm

I be no 1 wrote:
I saw this same coin listed on eBay in November of 2008 for $5995 or best offer. Sale closed on December 5th, 2008 with no buyer. I don't know if it was relisted after this prior to December 7th of 2009. I saved the original photos from the 2008 auction and the slab and coin look the same. The PCGS numbers are the same.

I'm amazed you've even recall the PCGS no. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:46 pm

Do the forgers really need to buy a coin press??? I think they could easily rent one...like the one that was used to mass produce the restrike patterns of Marcos.
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coolacoin



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PostSubject: Re: What is the fair value of the 1828 manila 8 Reales in PCGS XF40   Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:08 pm

I think those pattern coins were produced using the real dies from TUPAZ. It was sold in Cartimar and the dealer that bought it sold it to several dealers and collectors. Some of the dies were even sold on Ebay by an ebayer by the name of electronicbay101 or something.
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